30 years on, amending the Charter of the New Urbanism

To one pm eastern time. Good to see you.org slash resources slash on the park bench to find out more about that. On the Park Bench webinar and others that are coming up. And save the date. Seeing you, 32 will be in Cincinnati, Ohio on May fifteenth through eighteenth in 2024. This historic river city has rebu harnessing its own diversity to overcome adversity, learn more at seeing you. Dot org slash seeing you 32. And today we have a panel of presenters with a long-term impact on seeing you, all of them are well known to the seeing new audience. Mallory botches, seeing you president has 25 years of international work in urban planning, urban design, and community development, and wealth of experience and nonprofit leadership, including CNU. Elizabeth Plate plate or zybric is a co-founder of CNU and co-founder of DPZ co-designed. She is Malcolm Mathis in Distinguished Professor of Architecture and Director of the Master of Urban Design Program at the University of Miami. Emily Tallon is professor of urbanism at the University of Chicago. She is a prolific author in the field. Susan Henderson is founding principal and director of design at place makers and Laurie Voke is co-managing director of Zimmerman Volk Associates. I'm Rob Studeville, editor of Cnu's Public Square. And coinciding with the thirtieth anniversary of seeing you, the board of directors has authorized the process for soliciting, refining, and selecting amendments to the Charter of the New Urbanism and that's what today's webinar will cover. First there's going to be some presentations followed by a discussion among the panelists and then Q&A from the audience. So please use the Q&A function of Zoom to ask your questions. As they occur to you and now Mallory is here to tell you more. Thanks, Raj. I'll pull up a slide here. So as Rob said today we're here to talk about a process for amending the charter of the new organism. Over the past 30 years, we have utilized this tool as our foundational document explaining the principles that we practice new urbanism through. As many of you would know, it was signed by attendees at the fourth annual Congress in 1996. And it provides the core principles of our collective work and articulates an alternative. Vision to urban sprawl. After a generation of work. The context of our collective work has changed and new and evolving obstacles to our vision have emerged. And so coinciding with our thirtieth anniversary this year, the CNU Board of Directors has offered us a process. For soliciting, refining, and selecting amendments to the charter. It's been a generation since it was written and the board has seen the opportunity to reflect on ways it might be expanded. To respond to the new and evolving challenges that cities are facing. The Charter Amendment Committee was established by the board with the members, some of which joining me today, the chair, Emily Talon. Marcus King, Susan Henderson. Jennifer Hurley. Marcus is on there twice. He's very popular. Sorry about that. And Dan Solomon and Lori B. And I am staffing that committee on behalf of the organization. And so before we get into the process itself, I'm gonna. Turn this over to Elizabeth Plaiters, Ibro, as Rob pointed out, one of our founders and emeritus board members so that she can give a little bit of background to the charter and the history behind its evolution. Liz, I think you're muted still. Thank you. Thank you for the reminder. I'm going to spend a few moments talking to you about the history. The organization and its documents. I asked to have this slide put up. Because I wasn't sure how many in the audience may have seen me original signed document and a number of copies were made in there. In various places but all of this started in the 19 nineties when a group of architects realized that they were sharing a critique of urban development and attempting to deal with that critique and practice. And in ways that were parallel or heading in the same direction and We wanted to know how to engage a larger audience. How to be effective. Even powerful. Thinking that the goals should be. Not our just our own practice, but. One of educating, and changing policies. There was a big ambition here. We did some research on other institutions, the Brookings Institute. For instance, the multi 1 million dollar annual budget, made us set that aside, but we were very much admiring of CM, the concrete international, which, several decades before had. Change the direction of urban architecture to, actually exactly what we were. Thinking of opposing. In 1991 the Iwani principles. Emerged the California local government commission under Judy Corbett's local government commission under Judy Corbett's leadership. Called people together at the Iwani lodge in Yosemite Park. For a conference. A number of us were there. We signed the 15 general planning principles for good growth. It was called smart growth or wise growth back then. And but those of us who had been, talking about these things among ourselves and in practice and you know these aren't good enough they're not going to get us where we want to. Go. And so 6 people, 6 practitioners and peter cats got together and started talking about how to make an organization and maybe the documents. To be powerful. As as we were ambitious to be. Always remembering the Charter of Athens that Sam had written. Back in the fifties. And so in 96, the charter was brought to the Charleston meeting very carefully crafted. Many people participated in it's writing. There was a kind of round-robin of that. Dan Solomon, master wordsmith was Very prominent in that effort. We wanted the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development at the time, Henry C. S. Nedos to sign it. So his assistant Mark Wise made sure that the Language was such that it could be. Signed. By. And this is the document. That emerged. During the that meeting the discussions continued. There were a number of adjustments made and but we almost dissolved the effort on one. Statement in the block, the street and the building which you see here called out on the left. The issue of style and architecture. Grew to be very important and some people were ready to leave. Charles Barrett, a great proponent of traditional architecture. Was a leading factor. In this discussion. And by adding those words, this issue transcends style. We pulled everyone back together again to be able to sign the document and proceed. And what's important is that this was an addition, this small statement. Over the years, discussions continued, many resulting in important initiatives which are not strictly speaking reflected in that. In the charter there were councils on various topics on green building on sustainability. Retail the urban boundary. Sprawl repair was an important initiative. And a number of tools were developed. The lexicon emerged. The transect, which is very useful today in climate change resilience and adaptation the smart code form based codes which even spawned a separate organization. None of these altered the charter. The canons of sustainable architecture and urbanism, which emerged in response to concern that there wasn't enough being said on those topics was called a companion to the charter of the new urbanism. And it gave more detailed principles. Today members are pointing to significant developments and concerns that should be. That should receive additional emphasis and be formally organized but recognized by the organization, environmental justice, climate change. I'm sure we're going to hear a number of others. What's important, I think, in the end, to understand about this history, is that we have always returned. To the importance of shared goals. Perspectives and approaches may differ. There needs to be room for individual. Considerations and actions. But our influence and impact is best served. By the overarching unity of goals and guiding principles. So I hope that's a helpful. Beginning for you all. Thank you, Liz, so much for that. And Emily, if you'd like to go ahead and walk us through the process that will be undertaking and doing this. Okay, thank you so much. Everyone. Yeah, so. You know, as Mallory and Liz have laid out, you know, here we are a generation later from when the charter was first conceived and written. And you know, it is a different world, a different time. We have different obstacles before us. And so, some change is, you know, potentially needed. And 1 point I really wanted to stress, which I think others have already said, but just to reiterate, the charter itself will not be changing in this process. At all, we will, be adding to it. So that's a little bit confusing and that we are asking for it. So that's a little bit confusing in that we are asking for amendments to the charter when we're not really actually changing in that we are asking for amendments to the charter when we're not really actually changing it. We're asking for amendments to the charter when we're not really actually changing it. We're adding to it. And this is how, you know, the US Constitution works. So, think of it, in that way. The amendments to the constitution did not change the constitution. So, as people think about, well, what needs to be added to the charter? What's not there? It might surprise people to know some things that are not actually in the charter in this list of 27 principals. Things like climate change. Things like diversity, equity, inclusion are not really explicitly in there. And so there are things that, you know, people argue, need attention and need to be brought into the charter. So let me just very quickly go through, what the process is going to look like. As Mallory said, there is a board appointed charter amendment committee overseeing this process. And here's what it looks like. Any member can propose a charter amendment. You do need to be a member. We are looking for a very succinct principal, something, you know, maximum of 50 words. You will need to back that up with an abstract, which lays it out a little bit, fleshes things out a little bit more. Really explaining what your succinct under 50 word, principle that you're proposing is. The principles should be very similar in tone to existing principles. So, that means that you should be, the amendment should be explicit and have a practical bent to it. It should not be a platitude. It shouldn't be a, you know, theoretical principle. It needs to be actionable. So that's really the key. Phase to think about. Proposals should consider, the scales of the charter. As you might know, these 27 principles are divided into 3 groups, 9 principles each. And so it's not a requirement to fit this. Your amendment, proposal into one of those categories, one of those scales, but. It, it's not a bad thing either. So, you should definitely consider that. Oh, sorry. So calendar, we are launching this, you know, summer is over already, but, there has been a launch, a soft launch. The proposals are going to be accepted very soon. And we will be taking proposals in until about December first. In December, January and February, we will be, you know, processing those. Hopefully we get a nice healthy number. The more the better. And then there will be, the committee will, do a bit of vetting of those proposals. There will be some online discussion of those proposals. There will be some online discussion taking place in a very open kind of kind of dialogue. That CN you will be facilitating and then finally in the, at the Congress in 2024 in Cincinnati there will be a vote. On the amendments on whether to include them or not. Voting requires membership but it does not require that you be in attendance at the congress and there'll be more details about that, how that voting online voting will work if you can't be in Cincinnati. Just a couple of points about what the committee will be doing. We are going to review the submissions and, you know, make a determination about suitability. For consideration. Another thing we're gonna do is if we do get overlapping proposals or things that are very similar to each other. We will work with the proposals, the authors and see if we can't, kind of consolidate and, have a kind of, joint proposal emerging out of those similar proposals. We will be suggesting, edits to for voice and clarity and, you know, minimizing redundancy. And then for selected proposals we will be asking for a bit of more explanatory text beyond that 200 word abstract will want something longer maybe a few a couple of pages similar to the text that accompanies the charter principles in the charter book. So be thinking in terms of that, but we don't wanna ask every proposing to write something longer that will just be for the ones that are are going to be selected. So, I think that's pretty much it. In a nutshell and, I will stop sharing and turn it back over to Mallory. Thank you, Emily. So, I'm sure that folks have questions. You can go ahead and add those questions down at the Q&A function at the bottom of your screen. And we're gonna Take those questions. I see one of them right away, which is very helpful is that this is being recorded. And so these as we walk through some of the questions and clarifications today. This is gonna be helpful for folks going forward in the process will make sure that this video is made available on our YouTube channel as we always do and on the park bench the page for our webinar on the website. But we'll also make this available directly on the charter amendment process page on the website as well. And, to, Emily's point about the launch, we've, we've soft launched this. The day that submission submission proposals will be begin to be accepted is October second Monday. The website will go live well there is a type form process that you can fill out if you're familiar with those. And that will go live on October second and we'll close. At midnight on December third, 2023. So you have a couple of months to work on your proposals, work on that abstract as Emily described, and and ask questions along the way that you might have. And so with that, I have a question for the group which is a bit of clarification. Around exactly what a charter amendment is and isn't. This was something that at the board meeting last week we had quite a bit of discussion around and so I was hoping that the committee members could give a little bit of further explanation just so everyone is really clear on what we are looking for. Susan, I see you have your hand raised. You can go ahead and answer this one. Yeah, thanks, thanks Mallory. So when we began thinking of this a couple years ago, Dan Sloan, who is our very generous, legal counselor. And a passport member. Advised us that because it's a sign document, We can't edit the document itself, but as Emily said, we can add clarity and expansion. And. On the one of the early committee calls. Dan Solomon was talking about items that The charter was either silent on or just referenced in passing that it becomes so much more. Cohen today. So, So an amendment is much like as much like the the Constitution as Emily said it's an entirely new principle that that needs to be expanded upon and There is there was some discussion about having the amendment signed to stay in keeping with the charter but that became a technically impossible with 2,000 members so this will be just like, just like with the, the Constitution, the amendments never were signed. Although the Constitution itself was. So I don't know if that helps. But it is an addendum. I think it's important to think about the purpose of doing this, the purpose of the amendment. And it's really to clip in my mind it's to clarify. Or to expand something that's in the original document. So it's not apart from the, you know, you shouldn't think of it as separate from the document. It's about clarifying and expanding what's already in there. Without rewriting the original charter So, I think in terms of, you know, something that was not sufficiently covered in the original document, something that needs to be, clarified and expanded on that wasn't in there before. I would add to that as well because from my perspective. The charter was something to live by in terms of our work and our practice. And our lives. However, the world has changed dramatically in 30 years. And even though we it the charter itself. Covers so many things. Given those changes in this country and in around the world. We need to address those issues as well. Or will be sadly behind the time. May, may I add a question? I don't see questions coming up, but I think they are. But maybe before you address the other audience. I found myself wondering as Emily was, describing the process. How will we deal with, potentially similar proposals? I could imagine that. On any of the topics that you've already mentioned that. Differing proposals may. Come in. So how There's an editing process, presumably you want to. On on a given topic you want to get to one proposal for the vote. And so How do we do? Yeah, we're that's a big role for the committee is we're gonna look at these and if there are ones that are similar we're gonna work with the authors, work with the proposals. And, you know, work to integrate and, and not have redundancy. That'll be, that'll be a big job of ours. Well. Ask them to work together maybe. If they don't, if these are people who don't wanna work together, we'll see. Hmm. They will be, they will, course they will. So. Yeah, that's a good point, Liz, cause that really, that I imagine that will happen. We might get more than one on climate change, for example, and, that would have to be consolidated. Yeah. And they may be coming, as I said in my introduction, from differing approaches. Okay. It's gonna be Exactly. And You know. To that point, that's one reason why to your point earlier, Liz, about Dan Solomon being a wordsmith. That's one reason why. He's so well, he, we, we felt it was critical to have him on this committee. And he very graciously has accepted and has been, you know, very influential in how we're thinking about the process. And, So being able to have that sort of continuity of voice and clarity of voice, you know, not not all new urbanists are we all like to think we're We're, Smith, but we really aren't. And so, there will be a fair amount of edit involved. Yes, and as, Emily pointed out that, you know, the role of the committee certainly has been to help us prepare this process, make sure that what we're putting together what the board is authorized and how staff is helping facilitate that is is clear and will provide a helpful process for you know a strong set of amendments. And just to clarify that the roles of this or that the board is authorized the process that staff is logistically facilitating this carried through, but it is the committee's role to really steward this process through and so they're awfully important in this whole in this whole effort though I would argue the most important participation is the membership and you know the the Charter of the Normanism is something as Laurie mentioned it's something owned by the membership by the movement itself and so we have attempted through this process to place that ownership where it belongs and that the the drafting of these proposals is coming from membership and that the voting on the ultimate set of amendments will be done by the membership. Now as the president of CNU, I will reiterate membership because membership of this nonprofit organization is something that we can help you with. If you find that you seem to not, you have your membership has lapsed for one reason or another. And we will be staff will be supporting folks. So as you go through submitting a proposal and you find that your membership seems to have lapsed. We will be we're prepared to be working with you to make sure that you can get that solved and get your proposals. And likewise, then when we get to the stage of voting, the same will be the case. I know we have a few questions here. There are a couple here that I've noticed that are somewhat related in terms of whether they are topics being considered by the committee. Sort of seating potential proposals. If pretend if potential topics have been listed for consideration, including but not limited to or if there is you know any suggestions that the committee is providing to folks on what might be proposed. I wanted to ask that of the committee for any sort of thoughts or feedback or steering of of a direction. I don't really think so, Mallory, because as you pointed out so clearly it belongs to the movement. And these should be issues. That are critical to the movement. Like there were a couple of comments on transportation and car free living and you know if that is crucial to your mission and your vision and your work. Well, propose it. And so there's a certain amount of this. It's, It's incredibly, it's bottom up, it's not top down. So it's really up to y'all what you come up with. I will just make one little bit of. Of advice and that is as Mallory suggested. This is good. It's going to be a member vote. And just to remind you, we're an incredibly diverse membership. Age, gender, race, culture. Politics beliefs. We have many many viewpoints that we're coming from but so try to remember that it's a broad base that's going to be voting. On the proposals and I would suspect just like the original. Start if you're too far in a single corner. You might have a hard time. At developing the votes. To to be adopted. So just consider that and try to find a place a balance that That is, that's, that's one gift of the original charter is it appeals to everyone. So keep that in mind. As you craft your proposals. I would also be interested to hear of the variety of Responses that people have had to the charter because what I may see lacking may not be to the next person and who knows it may be something we actually have even thought of. I mean, my practice is very different from your Susan. As an Emily if she's a professor and Liz is a goddess. Yeah. It's it's important that I think if there's something you feel very strongly about and you can make a compelling enough case to feel very strongly about and you could make a compelling enough case that the rest of us approve of. Why not? Yup. I'll note that one of the QA comments said even though the call looks like a woman's world, we're all women here on this, that the amendments are for all users to your point, Susan. Yes, we, we founded ouronic that the folks that were able to make this webinar today all happen to the ladies of organism that is just a coincidence nothing more Well, there might be someone who thinks there should be an amendment about mail space. That was a topic some years ago. Yeah. Huh. We have a question. This is related into process a bit from Gary Scott. Will there be additional language or process identified that provides guidance on future amendments and the future process doing a similar process like this in the future. And this was something that, I know the board has talked about and authorizing this process in the first place and actually talked a little bit with Dan Sloan about how to go about this. Given the fact that the charter was signed was drafted finalized and signed by folks. So I didn't know if anyone from the committee wanted to take that question. Sure, and thanks for asking it, Gary. That, I think it's a twofold question. Is, you were in the board meeting. Last week and as we discussed there's not a process defined in the charter itself. Nor is there to date a process defined in the board's bylaws. So, and the board doesn't own this. The movement owns it. So there's a lot of layers of complexity there. But I think the committee could make some suggestions. But likely it will just as this process was began by the board. I would imagine that a future. Guidance on an ongoing amendment process. Would also be guided by the board. Yeah, there was a follow up question that said, do, do we think that we will wait another 30 years or will we ask for amendments? More frequently than that. And, Susan, I think you've somewhat answered that, but that this is we're initiating a process that the board can then take up when it sees. The need or opportunity to do so. Let's see, we have a We have another question here that. Is another one about process. Will each amendment be put forth on its own for a vote or will all of the proposed amendments be packaged together for a vote. Well, until we see how many vote, the how many amendments we have, I mean. I think we reserve the right. Okay. Mallory reserves the right to override this opinion, but as of the moment the intention is that each one is considered individually because they'll be quite different. Right. Yes. I mean, as, as the voting happens. But keep in mind that by the end of February All the proposals will be out there to be discussed online. You know, you're not, we're not gonna just dump them all at you at the, in Cincinnati, you know, they'll be plenty of time to discuss and debate and see what's being proposed. I think that that's really important to have that. Part of the process. Yeah, I will add speaking on behalf of the organization that when, you saw the, the initial slide that I used is the the page on our website where folks can come to this and we'll be doing quite a strong outreach process through our various media platforms through our the Friday message that I send out through our, the Friday message that I send out, through our membership updates, our monthly membership updates that I send out, through our membership updates, our monthly membership updates. And a that focus will be around the solicitation process for the time being. As Susan and Emily both point out until we have the full set of proposals in the committee begins its work in in organizing those refining those working with the authors etc. The the final voting process we've withheld the ability to determine the final voting process until we know how complex of a task that is going to be if we end up with 27 amendments matching the 27 principles that will be a different process than if we end up with. 2 or 3 or 4. So as staff representing the organization administratively, where we will be following up with you all and I think this was a question that someone else had asked about will there be more information about how the voting process will take place. And absolutely, we will put as much energy into communicating out about that process as we are here at this stage of communicating about the amendment solicitation. Let's see, we have a question. This is an interesting one. I'm gonna read it in full so that you all can react. It's from Alexander Person who says fellow urbanists have expressed to me over recent years that CNU is dead. Despite my best efforts, I've, not been able to win them over. They argue that the principles of the charter are mainstream and the passion that the organization brought 30 years ago to town cities, planners, neighborhoods, etc, are not as radical and inspiring as they once were. For example, my local CNU chapter dissolved earlier this year. Due to a lack of participation and impact that we have on our local communities. How do you foresee the amendments reinvigorating folks that have gravitated to other organizations. And position CNU as trailblazers once again. I appreciate that question very much. I think that I never think of seeing you as being dead, but I do think that it a lot of it did go mainstream and that's part of the success of it. But absolutely I think the amendment process is meant to be reinvigorating the conversation and taking it to the next level and it's a really important part of the growth of the institution and so, you know, thank you for that question. I think it's a good thing to think about. Let's see, we have a bit of a process question here that I'll turn to, which was the a little explanation on the process for a pointing the committee. And I'm sure she's a new as a board member, the former board chair, when this committee was coming together, I'm sure you'd like to, tackle that one. Thanks, Mallory. And it's a great question. It was it was intended to reflect in many ways the the demographics of our group. We needed founders and original writers. We needed young younger, generationally members. And and we needed more diversity to reflect our evolving organization, which is Fortunately, becoming more diverse. And, So we use that as a sampling. It was crucial to us that Emily was involved because of her work on The book and and compiling all of the essays and her deep thought on on the top over the decades. And so she very graciously agreed to chair it. It was also very important to us that that Dan was on it because Liz had told us of his role as a primary author. And so that, and there were, there were people that turned us down that didn't have time. So, It was it was a process and and it had began before Mallory joined us and then so we revisited it with her and she broadened our scope with it. And, so I think ultimately it's a really good group. And I have a lot of confidence in their ability to to combine and edit and Propose. Thanks, Susan. I have a couple of questions here that I'm gonna bring up one and then it's going to perhaps feed another. The first is, whether there's any coordination with other groups like the ULI, APA, NAACTO, AIA, IT. If they're, if See and you itself is doing any of that coordination. And has not occurred to us. Yeah. Yeah. I will offer this, having sat in on a lot of these conversations that I think, maybe it's accurate to say that the it maybe point season to your earlier your most recent comment but the movement itself has grown and expanded to a lot of different, your most recent comment, but the movement itself has grown and expanded to a lot of different, broader participation in a lot of different disciplines that certainly would cross within intersect with any one of these organizations. We have members that are you know, coming from all different sorts of professional practice that impact the built environment and not to say that there weren't in the original writing of the charter but as season pointed out we have 2,600 members now that we touch a lot more organizations than we did previously and likewise a lot more organizations touch CNU. So that relationship with our members gives us the opportunity to have that influence. And so I would say in terms of drafting up. Amendments to the charter. Fix are coming with a background and networks and and practices that will influence what they are proposing and hopefully in a broader way than initially, 30 years ago. The additional question that this sort of leads to, I'm gonna read as well. I haven't quite thought about this. This possibility or this relationship, but it's important, at least as president of seeing you, the relationships, that the organization has it take quite seriously. The question is, I'm curious to know if an organism is actively considering learning from successful European urban movements such as Scandinavian urbanism and the UK Compact City Nation. These movements have demonstrated significant achievements in creating sustainable walkable and mixed-use urban environments. Are there any plans or initiatives within Normanism to explore and incorporate lessons or best practices from these European approaches to the charter. To which it's a little bit of a broader question than simply about amending the charter. But I think it sort of lays out a question about our influences. And, and how those might influence the type of might might direct the type of proposals we would be receiving. Wonder if anybody on the committee has any further thoughts about that. Well, we all wish we lived in Europe permanently. Yeah. Okay. But, yeah, it's a little, it's, I appreciate the question, but we're always learning from our European counterparts all the time. Bye. And, I think it'd be interesting if there were some aspects of those movements. That Rafik mentions that that should be brought into the charter as an amendment. I'd be really curious about that, something specifically. That would be really quite interesting. Well, I have, one more question here that actually, puts Liz on the spot, but I'm going to adapt it a little bit. I'm going to use the President's privilege to adapt the question just a little. The question is whether what Liz would anticipate being an example of a necessary amendment, but, but I wanted to actually go back to ask a question and in our research on staff and preparing for this. We did go back through many past congresses. A surprising number of past congresses, in fact, where the idea of amending the charter had come up during panel discussions during keynote discussions. And so I was wondering, Liz, if you might be able to reflect on what you think it is about. And so I was wondering, Liz, if you might be able to reflect on what you think it is about Normanism that led to the instinct for for folks to consistently bring up this topic that now the board is finally after 30 years created a process for. I'd love to respond to that. You know, I should point out, I hope not to embarrass, and that is who asked the question. Okay. That he is part of a revived local CNU group. This is the opposite experience of The question you had earlier in which younger people are getting together and we're trying to participate in that. Us old folks as well. To address certain local concerns. So we're grateful that we have that group in our region. But you know, I think all along Mallory to take that larger context that you added. There are always concerns of the moment and you know maybe one. Yeah, and the green cannons, the canons for sustainability, for instance. It came out of that and it had to do with, you know, a group of people who felt that that was needed to be addressed at the moment in a way that we had not before. I think they are often have been references to some of the conventions that many of us use. In design or principles that are not mentioned. You know that What is that 5 min walk or what is the optimum size of a block for pedestrians those details are part of the practice and part of the practice and part of the literature. You know, there's great, there is a lot of room for people addressing those individual. Interest in both the educational way and potential policy change. With the organization to back your individual initiative but you know, one that maybe someone would be interested right now because some of us are coming to terms with it or trying to is. Ai and. Urban urbanism or You know, we haven't, we haven't done anything on smart cities, right? Per se. That's going on around us and maybe that's just a management tool and not really something that affects. The overall. Concept or form. Of urbanism. Concerns for. Communities. You know, specifics on. Ages or as you said. You've as you've said equity so there's there really could be a I think a greater variety than what we may have imagined up to now. And especially if we can engage as a couple of people have suggested other. Other organizations or other directions of focus that, are important to. To our time, that others are engaged in how can we bring that in, I think. It's exactly a very good challenge that's been brought up. So I think it'll be interesting to see what. What people come up with and they like, you know, like. As one person said, it's. Much of what's in there seems like we've. Been there, done that? Well, We haven't. There's still a lot of. Battles to be fought on some of those. Older issues but There are new battles, I think, as Susan pointed out, and we should make sure that they are. Articulated in some way and if not in the charter I wonder whether at some point the group might not say Oh, we're going. These are appropriate for minutes, but there's this other list of things that we should be addressing. In our gatherings because part of coming together. I think Steph, always points this out. very eloquently is our ability to Critique, discuss, and try to find a way forward that's more powerful than just. That merely critiquing or merely discussing, you know. What's the action? What's the implementation? And so besides the amendments you may. Come up with a very interesting roster of things we should be working on. As a group in the manner that's being promoted by some of these questions. We have as we're bringing the charter awards jury together this year and talking about the, you know, our annual award. Our ward program that that reflects the work of the charter one of the George chair and I had a chat about how the fact that this is the last year that that awards program will be embracing the original charter going forward. We presumably will have If they are voted through amendments to that charter and that will expand how that awards program is delivered. And it's interesting to think about it in that context. Like you say, Liz, there are a lot of ways that this is an opportunity. For us to embrace new avenues and new areas of work and new exploration. There's a couple more questions left. So if you have any more feel free to toss those into the QA, but I wanted to hit one of these first. And then there's one that's a good sort of last question. The the first one I wanted to go through was that the submission material includes proposed principal and abstract, but asked if we should if proposals should include the category where their amendment might fall, meaning that we have suggested, though not demanded, that proposed amendments reflect the scale levels of the charter and we recognize that there may be some proposed amendments that would be universal. And so we haven't required that, but we have suggested that you think in terms of the scales of the charter when writing these proposals. So a question for the group is if the. if the principal is good on its own, does it necessarily need to demonstrate how it reflects one of the scales of the charter. I think we're gonna wanna see some recognition. That the fitting into a scale has at least been considered and thought about. But I think some some proposed amendments might not fit into one of the scales and we don't I don't think we know exactly how we're gonna deal with it in terms of Do we create a new category that's these are universal to everything up to all scales category. I don't, I think we need to see what we're dealing with before we make that kind of decision. But again, just you don't have to fit into one of the scales, but recognition that you've considered that and thought about it is good, would be helpful to us. Well, and as a follow on, maybe one question would be, what about the preamble, isn't that the general? Statement could that take an amendment also? Hmm. Okay. Susan, you want to talk to that? That was discussed. Hello. That's it. Oh. No. We tried to edit the preamble the board did for a DEI statement and we realized we hit a third rail. You just don't, I think maybe you don't touch the preamble. I think that may be. Beyond the pale for Okay, so, we're using some members. But could there be a, an amendment to it? Why not? An addition. And it, I don't know. Yeah, well, propose it. They're creative people out there who knows. Yeah, just consider your audience when you're making that proposal because We discovered the board discovered to our dismay that we were not successful with that. Hmm. Trying to edit it. Yeah. That was editing it rather than just. Not. That's true. That's true. Oh, I think that might very well be possible. Yeah. Here's another logistics question that. Before I get to this final one, I will I will offer an answer to which was the question stated I've demonstrated my knowledge of the current charter through my senior accreditation. Like a new charter awards, will there be a new senior accreditation exam or class? And I can tell you that internally at CNU, we are working on updates as Liz knows very well. We are in partnership with the University of Miami on the senior accreditation course in the exam. And we've been working on updates and indeed as we continue to update that exam we will need to. Update it to an expanded, presumably expanded charter. And update the course material accordingly. And I would reiterate the importance of having the essay explaining the significance of the amendment. Is a direct example. The CNUA course is a direct example of why that's important. The ability to fully explain what the intention behind an amendment might be is similar to how we fully explain the intention behind each one of the principles of the charter. So I think we have one last question here. And that'll close us out for this webinar. The question is, could you imagine a situation in which a critical principle or change is not proposed as an amendment, and what if anything might the committee choose to do should this occur? Yeah. I guess one of those questions. Oh, what an issue would be as a committee member. Can you propose an amendment yourself? We never have discussed that. We alluded to this in the in the board meeting because Someone brought up is that is there such a thing as a conflict of interest? On the part of the committee and I'm not sure that there is. I think if you proposed something you wouldn't vote on it but just because you're a committee member. Doesn't mean that you don't have a vested interest in the charter. And a point that we make on the website and we maybe have not made clear enough here is that these like the original principles these are though we will be seeking the the explanatory essays eventually for for these principles that the principals themselves are not offered the amendments rather themselves are not offered much like the principals do not tied to a specific author. Themselves are not offered much like the principals are not offered much like the principals are do not tied to a specific author that these are as this document is owned by the membership therefore you know a role of Proposing an amendment is important and we hope that you take it very seriously, but we this is something that the entire membership would be embracing, will be voting on and presumably embracing. Well, everyone, I think that that seems to be the the questions that we have that we have received today. I want to take the time to thank Susan and Emily and Laurie and Liz for being a part of this webinar and helping explain what is a pretty monumental process for us. As a movement. I'm very grateful to the participation of all of the CNU board. To the all of the members of the charter amendment committee some of which couldn't be here today and to the membership who are going to contribute what we know will be really thought provoking, challenging proposals to amend the charter. So with that, this will be available. Like I said, at the beginning, this will be available on our YouTube channel. It will be available on on the Park Bench page of the website. It will be available on the Charter Amendment process page of the website and you will be able to find that amendment process right on our landing page. Starting Monday. October, the second. And we look forward to the proposals that you all submit. Thank you all for being here today. Have a wonderful day everybody. Thanks. Thanks everyone