The Magic of Inner-Block Development:Alleyways as the Final Frontier of New Urbanism

in resources on that will be available at Cnn. Dot, org slash, resources slash on the park bench, And now for today's webinar, we are joined by Aaron Lubeck, who is a new urban builder, in Durham, North Carolina and Founder, of Southern Urbanism, a Nonprofit committed to city building in the south. He is the author of a children's book on accessory dwellings, entitled Heather has 2 dwellings and host of the National Town Builder Associations, town builders podcast Thomas doherty Holds a Master of Architecture, and Master of Urban design from the University of Notre Dame. He is author of the American Alley, a hidden resource, published by strong towns, and, works as a ux urban designer designing an advocating for inner block urban spaces and i'm lauren mayor Communications manager at Cnu. The topic of today's webinar is inter block development interblock development is a distinct urban type that includes buildings on alleys. Muse pedestrian paths in cottage courts, and more to introduce intimacy and safety to urbanism at all scales. Today's panelists have made a special study of this urban type. The webinar will start with the brief presentation followed by an interview between Aaron and Thomas They are hoping for an active conversation with you. The audience. So please, use, the Q. A function of zoom to ask your questions as they occur. Aaron, you're muted figured, if you're leading here, Thomas, so my name's Aaron Lebeck is introduced. I am. I'm actually going to leave the chat later. But mostly we'll start with presentation by Thomas, who, as she mentioned, we'll talk a little bit more, book where a lot of these images come from the American Alley. Which is how I recommend it Let's call pick up just beautiful drawings. I really kind of the only book out there on this topic. no on the history values, but also the It's kind of the dimensional rule. To follow how these things work. Spaces form building so. Oh, I'm in Let Thomas lead on this, and then I will come back. Okay. Thanks, Aaron. Good afternoon, everyone! A pleasure to be here with you all, and to I'm gonna give a the brief overview that Lauren just gave the plan for this hours I'm gonna give a brief presentation 10 min. I'm gonna talk about the inner block as an urban type. It's characteristics, it's implications for form based codes in the future of allies. Then Aaron will moderate a conversation for 1520 min, but we're really hoping to to save that final 2025 min for open Q. A. So right down your questions, or put them into the chat, singing So I'm gonna start with this. I can come up screen to go, which is the most photograph street in the United States. Well, if you type that into Google, you're gonna get Acorn Street Right, Beacon Hill is great. Here's the street network of of Beacon Hill. So where is Where's Acorn Street? The most photograph street in the United States, you know. The question is is this even a street right? We're looking at something, you know. One of these things is not like the others. Acorn Street. Right here. Is that a scale, a width of length that is unlike the rest of the Deacon Hill in Boston. It's 18 to 21 feet wide along one whole wall, one whole side of the street, is a garden wall. It's 9 continuous, and the other side of the street is foreign bribe. Rick party, Wall, row homes. So, looking at it, you might say, Well, that looks like an alley. What's also the most photograph street, according to Google, of the United States. If you start, if you keep going down that road of like, Okay, well, what's the second? Most photograph street or what's in the top. 10, You're gonna start seeing the minor streets in Philadelphia. You see Alfred's ally, and other other minor streets. So this is the intersection of Irving and Quint streets, And I'm just gonna point out the figure ground right here, right? This is the major street network. Philadelphia. I think these are the these are the planned streets, and these are all the little unplanned street that were built by the incremental developers of 1,800. Right so I have it in. Know that these 2 houses right here were built by the incremental developer, Henry volum in 1813 18, to 21 foot wide. Non continuous right. This is not part of the rest of the grid brick party. Wall row homes. So this is in the definitely in the top, let's say, 10 most photograph streets we can keep playing this game all day. So what's the most instagramable street in Edinburgh? Go ahead and Google it. You're probably gonna come up with Circus Lane and Edinburgh again. No! This is 18 feet wide, from wall to wall. Little 2 story party. Wall residential buildings. This is the match of getting our block development. Today, I want to introduce the inner block as a place where your town and city's most beautiful human scaled urbanism is waiting to be built. Humans are hardwired for human scale, and this is something we generally stop building human scale. About 200 years ago, and I would argue that once you're inside of the block, once you're inside of any a corn street, Irving Street circus. Vain, Your edit scale, where that development takes up all of your experience and in some sense you could be anywhere. It create such a strong sense of place, The sense of place at 18 to 22 feet wide is extremely powerful. So what is interblock? Urbanism? Well, one insight is this observation by Douglas Duaney, and I guess I'd say it's it's not really a directive it really was an observation. And a and and he said Inside the city block you find the intimacy of the hamlet, the quietness and sense of safety that could bring families with children end of the city. And if you see this right here, right this is in Bruges and Belgium, and it's just a very clear example of an inner block space and inter block development. Here we have our block. You can see the street. Come, here's this street. Here's the street. This little collection of 14 homes around a garden is access via that urban gateway, that that gateway into the center of the block. This is in a block So what are the characteristics of interblock? You know this is a really clear example, but there are other examples that are probably less clear. What about 8 point? 3, Some of these other and that's what I want to cover in the rest of this presentation. And so the 3 that I'm going to call out today are nested, right? It's inside of the block. Human scale and transect shift. So down the the path of nested. This is the blocking street pattern of of of the historic city center of Utrecht. In the Netherlands. And I've highlighted right here, you know. This little stretch of street. It's 24 foot wide from building face to building, face. Right? So this is the block and strict pattern of E. Tox. It's very clear in that figure ground, unless you were looking for it, you wouldn't see all of these other inner block public spaces, and there's a sense kind of like Samuel public semi-private you know You might not walk down. That street, or through that passes, or through that opening because you don't know if you're really allowed to. And I'm gonna go back to this one. For example, I would not have gone through this if a professor had not been walking myself. And other grad students through bruise and saying, Let's go through there. And just for fun. Let's look at the intersection of these 2 streets. So this is our 24 foot from building face to building. Phase 3. And here's our 12 foot wide Inner block Minor street, and that's the intersection. So I'm walking down this street, and I look to the left. That is the passage entrance to get over here So that that's a a version of inner block of any fill development in a in a traditional historic city. Well, here's another characteristic of inner book spaces. Human scale. Humans are hardwired for human scale. This is Carlton Landing in Oklahoma and this. So this is an example of inner block that that a place with those characteristics of nested human scale transact shift in new green field development. And I want to highlight that sense of clicks. This is from the lexicon of the new urban sense of place, a highly desirable but elusive attribute of urbanism. Its Existence is notoriously unpredictable, and conventional. Suburban design, the common and traditional urban fabric. There's a very strong tie between that sense of place and human scale. I really, I I really like going to call to line. I've been there multiple times many times. Sorry. Yeah. I think there are lots of strong pieces to that urban design. If you were to walk around here. Just look at the sent like the scale, right from the aerial right? You have this little space right here, which is 18 feet wide. You have all these other places. When I think about sense of place, I think about Carlton Landing. Maybe as a neighborhood, as a whole, and different images come to mind. But then there are key places within within call to landing, which jump out, and this is top of the list, and great Chatman didn't act. Okay. Didn't build this, but he designed it, and I asked him I said, Clay, what were you looking to for, pressing? He said. Well, you know there's this street up in Boston, called Acorn Street. So this he was taking the measurement he he designed, The dimensions of this, the scale of this from Acorn Street, and going further down that lane right? So we are right here. Now. We're walking down here. Look at the human scale that's been captured here. Think about. You know we all know. Probably most of us know call to landing at least images from Carlton Landing. These are the images that we know, because these are the most powerful images of space, of sense, of place, human scale. So finally transact shift. You know this characteristic of inner block, and I, going back to a circus lane here, which I showed at the beginning and I'm just kind of walking us, down, you know the the the main street here and then into the the rain. Please. Here. So this is our first image, one and we're looking at 75 to 95 feet to the corn site and a 100 feet from building face to building face which that's actually narrower than building case development case of my street which i'm looking at right here, So then you keep going down, and you look to your left, and it's startling this. You go from city to village just like Bam right there, and that you know, I think very often we look at the transact, and this this gradation, and you go from city to rural Douglas, who helped pioneer this term would say, hey? We got the transact wrong alone when we did that, we have to recognize that the transect is nested right? You end up with village inside city block, you end up with hamlet inside of other box collections of blocks, so you can go from, you know to Hamlet, just don't by going inside. The block so we look to the left. Here's that village street. You walk another 10 s down that street, and all of a sudden it's 18 to 22 feet. The corner site, and 18 feet from building, face to building face. Okay, in our block and form based codes I'm prejudiced, but I think South Bend is one of the most exciting places in the organism right now, and 2021 they They won the Richard H. 3 house, a word for their new form based code. Add the new pre-approved, pre-approved building plans that I think Jen Griffin help put together is the pre-proof plans. By you know Matt Petty and Matt Hoffman. That's the future of zoning and urbanism. Your organism. I'm confident, and I think South Bend is one of the leaders in that. So that we we looked in Philadelphia, and we saw the infill development, the inner, blocking field development of 1,800. We saw, the what what is inner block, and seems, you know, to be infill. I'm sure it was clouded at the same time. But it has the sense of infill that inner block space. That's green field. Right? Mrs. Present Day. What do we do with South Bend? What happens with form based codes and inter block development Okay, this past February, former professor at Notre Dame asked me to come and spend a couple of days with his students We're working on a studio project in South Bend and the site was this block and this land here and There's a church here. And a church here, and this these are the, you know, the standard form based code rules for for that zone, for the for the Nc. Neighborhood, center district And this is all credit to the students here. They did, I think, a right remarkable job of looking at this site and creating places that South human places that had never really lived in South End it, never appeared in South. End. So this this is kind of the starting point right? This the land. And their first move was to contain the outside of the block, which is the purpose of the form based code right? The form based code is right, the public round. How are we shaping our streets? But then they added this narrow lane, and we're getting to that scale that we saw in 8.3 like this is not like the rest. And this is this non-continuous 18 foot wide. Here's a plaza! And then they kept going. Well, at this next phase, and I would argue, you know, taking a page out of opticosis book, just as there are missing middle housing types. There are missing urban spatial types that we really never got in the United States. So if you're going to Italy, you got the piazza that you had set at the courtyard. Well, our urbanism really comes from England, and another one. So if you go to England you find the square residential square, the residential muse, the residential court, and the other ones, you would find the Hof Yeah, or the Interlock Green in historic American cities like like Charleston and Philadelphia. You find the residential lane, and Allie. But we really lost those, and you only see little fragments in the historic cities. And so these students were bringing these missing urban spatial types to South Bend for really the first time in in the history of that place. These inner block the sense of place is so strong here, and this is there design and video. And I'm gonna play this for you real quick So this is the site, the 2 churches That sense of scale, that place that does not currently exist. Nothing like this exists in South Bend sense, of place It's only possible, or that effect on the place. When you're bringing that scale down that human scale. That's so hard to come by today. are being passed, and you could say, Well, hey, some of the you know types that we're allowing, let's say, one. The cottage court that creates new public realm because really inner block. That's we're adding public realm to our existing towns and cities. And so the Cottage court is a version of which yes, I can create that moment, that lovely moment of public public round there. But there are these other missing urban, spatial types, the students designed around that we're not taking advantage of so I'm gonna talk about the alley real quick, the And this is the the book that strong towns direct strong towns published. last year, and so I encourage you all to to get it. It's free, downloadable online Back to Philly real quick, So why do we have missing urban spatial types? And it's really they didn't make it into the modern conception of a city in 1,682, Philadelphia is laid out in 1,682 by William Penn and the efficient So in this this map right, here the official William Penn streets are in yellow, and all the incremental developer streets that were waited later added, Those are in red, and there was no room for those red streets in the modern conception. The modern, of 1,700. Of what this the modern study should look like. And so this on the left. These are the plan streets, and they're lovely. Right? Bye, but on the right we have the unplanned incremental developer versions of 1,800, 1,700, 1,800, and the cutting edge streets of 1,700 the ones on the left were meant to avoid fire disease by having lots of light and air and all the carriages and needs and infrastructural needs of you know the industrial world, and since the Old world of Europe was narrow, the thing that everybody wanted was the wide streets So we ended up coming to the United States from the very beginning and creating widespread go to your hit you know I think very often we think Oh, well, if you were to go back historic American towns and cities, we find, you know, the the human scale, pedestrian scaled places, and that's actually rarely the case. This, is the the This is my street, right outside my window, right here. It was developed far before automobiles, and yet there's 2 lanes of parking and 2 lanes of travel on my street, plus big setbacks. And that was standard right? So the modern city wanted to have wide streets. Then Thomas Jefferson wanted to settle merit. Well, the founding fellows want to settle America, and they wanted to do it fast, And so we got the Continental grid, and so we went from Meridian to parallel to check So meridian parallel to check the township township sec section i'm getting these confused. Let's start over. Ride in parallel check Township section city block, right? And so kind of with. With one act they they settled all of the rest of the United States to follow this continental grid. But if you look closely, we have one right of way. That's still human, scaled right there in the center. That's the apple. And so this is an ally next to the minor street, of Philadelphia, drawn at the same scale. that's great. Thomas. Thank you so much, so I know we've got a really well attended partner today, and I'd want to ask you a couple questions, but then really open it up to people who have already put some great questions in the chat which I think some of what you started to answer. But and this is somewhat really unique. So I think people are attracted to it because we don't talk about the alley enough. There's not really other books about it in particular. Most you really all your most Google. Streets, And then the thing that stands out to me, none of them are built in the last 200 years, even though we all love this stuff made for member of the Cnu this is the kind of stuff we'd like to see it's small it's even kind, of naturally affordable if this stuff is built today, you know, just small, simple boxes. So? Why why is nobody built this stuff in the last 200 years? yeah, I mean. There are so many and tangled pieces to that, and I think no one Gray and his new book on Zoning is a key. Part of it. Let me let me talk roughly about why they stop building it right About 1,800. No, I'm sorry. About 18, about 19. I was like 1818 nineties in Philadelphia. They really started to crack down with building codes, and the intent was to a 2 to stop. The conditions which were conducive to disease and fire, and it was really pushing it. W. Was a really high density of these building. So you saw the little buildings, you said, Yeah, they're they're kind of a They're affordable by. they're naturally affordable, or naturally attainable. They were called Trinity houses in Philly, Philadelphia. There are 3 story, but by about 1890 they were very often lived in by, let's say, 3, even 4 family. So there were very overcrowded, and building codes were being passed to eliminate their construction, and also to demolish the existing buildings so they weren't really seen as part of the future of the city. That they were where poor people lived, and and we were doing our best to create safe, clean places that and the infrastructural needs of of the of you know, 1890 were for those alley for for inner box spaces to serve for cooking for wells for latrines for all these things, all these things Now that fit Oh! within a cavity wall. We needed the service alley to take care of So that's why they stopped doing it. And I would say, today, it's an opportunity that has really only opened up with some of the new atu legislation Right? Arp and the others that have been pushing au legislation are really opening up the door to interblock development. Yeah. Oh, we talk! I want to get into a or a Rp's leadership on this, but I know a bunch of the questions in the chat are about fire access and emergency egress access fire in particular comes up So I'm sure. Many people on this call design, and this is the street with the fire market. Would not. True, right here but talk a little bit about your experience. these beautiful spaces, because we don't actually have to design a good compliance out or a fire. I think that that's absolutely correct and and all I have to do is look at all The new edu legislation, and that was a key piece of the unlocking. Which the Atu ordinance or we're doing. It was pushing municipalities to accept that, to to deal with that, and to look at where our comfort bubbles for for you. And and so I think most municipalities have a certain Number of feet for their hose around here. It's a 150 feet, so if I can, if I can get the host to all parts of that building within a 150 feet, or wherever that hydrant or fire truck can get then the first responder can can get there and so one could walk a bit So I'm leaving up this diagram, because I think this is actually going to be helpful for some of these One could argue that today you could not have 2 consecutive like I couldn't have a minor street here maybe And a minus 3 here Now, Philadelphia has lots of examples where you do have that, But you could argue that you know the infrastructure needs to access all the way around the block, so that I can get the first responders in there. So I can get my trash. The outside of the block But that's kind of the beauty of the situation. We find ourselves in is that we have cities that have been gritted from C to shining C with interblock space, many of them with alleys and so we can kind of have these urban Waste we can have this this this checkerboard right of of of streets where you can have the hmm. And all that node. I've been blessed with. But seeing you and the National Town Voters Association to like 2, or on that, you know America's great T. D's traditional new urban neighborhoods one of the things that always stood out to me is that while the best developers in the movement really get the the street pretty pretty well, yeah, pretty much smaller narrow room covid 19 primary streets the alleys are still overwhelmingly afterthoughts. They hide the car. They check that box which is a really core phone end. They off, You know it's usually just a kind of utilitarian garage, small, with any backyard rarely if ever, an ad you on it you. See some of them in the account ones. But first of all, talk about that missed opportunity, and then also you have some favorite alleyways that you've seen a new organism besides. pedestrian scaled streets, you know, running parallel to, and a whole other kind of world adjacent to our infrastructure. Streets. Yeah. So for actually, for both of those I would look at, say Rosemary, you know, in in Florida. And we use the word ally. And I think we often get things confusing. So when I'm using, you know, in Philadelphia the word met narrow residential street bind with a tangible housing. That's what That's what, Allie Matt right? It was not a service street, and it had no related service relationship to the major streets along it. And so then, when you talk about the new urbanist alleys, right, those are back of house for the front street, and that's our word. Ally switched over to that, you know, kind of at about 1,800. When we started cladding all of America right like with the Continental grid and that center alley that was the back of house of the industrial city and we needed a lot of room for back of house if you were to go down to rosmar what you would see is that the pedestrian ways, right? Maybe you call them streets right? The fronts It's called front and back for now the front is narrower than the back, so the back where I have my infrastructure needs where my first responders, come where I park my car those areas need to be water and they are wider and they're less that's attention and detailer put to them. They're the back of house and the front of house. That's at this minor street scale. We're talking about 1822, 28. But why? And so it actually looks kind of like this, right? So go down to Rosemary, and just or you know, we'll get like Hey, where Where are people parking? Where the first responders were these, and so so that's an example of one beautiful version of Inner block or Minor street that you know that these missing, urban spatial types that human scale while also providing the parking the trash, all the other things and it's interesting to look at that. We even realize that the pedestrian what we're looking for. Is pedestrian. Yeah, humans, our hardware for human scale, that actually the best is that narrower front. You know that Rosemary created exactly Sorry about that. A super interesting idea that basically inverting the 2 streets. And so you know, design wise. There's nothing to prevent you from doing that. One of the most interesting examples is Billage Homes one of the earliest new urban. Yes, developments, which is really sort of suburban type houses. But in Davis, California, you pull up on the code Compliant Normal Streets, but the all It's really the alleyway and the stuff houses are inverted to face the alley which is a common and so that it seems like there's also opportunities to you know whether whether accessory structures. or not exist. But that idea of burning. Okay, no, you know, really using the primary streets as the back. Erin. You're muted Hey! And I would like to jump in real quick, and just say, before people say, Hey, Why, are you trying to do that to our major streets? I'm not like, I think, that this kind of transformation is applicable in many places. I also think that there are many arguments to not do it in certain places. it was there. Very well. I think it also can be a standard on project. You know, when we deal with a new form based code for a a neighborhood or a city, it's encompassing of the entire area. I think, with inner block things, it can happen moment by moment right. You could have a form based overlay, or something like that, and you could tackle one block at a time. Okay. So one block adjacent blocks, maybe one. It is appropriate right now to transform it. Maybe the other one is not. And the other thing I'd like to say is that most of these services are these services in many towns. Cities are already on the Front Street so if you were to go to South Bend, for example, most of the allies that I have photographed there our gravel They're 12 to 14 foot wide and they're 0. Services. On them They don't get cloud Trash doesn't get picked up on them Power lines sometimes run down them, sometimes don't, and water and septic, or under the main streets, so we already south bend for Example: in many ways in South bend it's already an area. That actually has none of those services So it's just a it's an opportunity waiting to be graphs. Yup So I want to get into some of the questions here. I want to keep just as a as a shout to everybody. I know it's confusing. There's actually 2 places people are putting questions. I'm gonna go through the Q A. Format first, and then I think well there's 5 25 questions posted already. Thomas. So we'll do some of this rapid buyer. But one of the things that I wanted to ask you to was about the Form base codes and aarp, the form based codes, which are sort of becoming a reform to make these new urbanism sort of work and cities seem to be really not talked about on bye back of the spaces or alleyways at all. What are we missing there, and what are other examples? South Bend, where it's actually being incorporated. There. I would say the cottage court is the one example that I can think of that allows for new public realm. And so inner block, especially with our towns and cities today, is really the cool creation of new public space. Right. So the inner block we're talking about that interblock courtyard the interlocking in a block inner block space that is, public or sending public. And so I think, recognizing kind of like opticus. Right? We have missing middle housing types. We we lost them for 50 years. We've lost them well in the United States. The modern city planning, the Enlightenment City planning of 1,700 left human scale. It left many of our earning spatial types in Europe. They rare. They came over here by happenstance and by incremental developers of those time periods. And so I think, recognizing those and trying and working those into, let's say, the pre-approved plan Concepts like, here's up missing urban spatial type. It's called a lane. These are the pre approved layouts and buildings that go along with them. And then you allow building codes and other things to be the you know the the guardrails of of working that through a system. My experience. Yeah, in the last question for getting these questions. But what we're talking about, Arp's role in smaller housing, senior housing, and and your engagement with them just talking about accessory dwellings and Allie concepts and developing alleyways, what what catalyzing for something like I think nobody's I think you're right. It hasn't happened yet, and I'm excited to work on it. I mean. They seem to be the, and in in conversations over the last 3 or 4 years, I think they're often brought up as they are. One of the key leaders in the 80 movement. You know. They're giving the credentials to so many different practitioners, you know, that are that are pushing this and you know shout out to their their leadership and the the model let's say the model codes that they're putting I think those are super helpful, the the pre-approved versions of of of 80 use that they've been championing. So my my interaction with them has been actually it's been limited. It's actually been around the Gods house, and the elderly housing versions of inner block development. But that's something. I would also like them to spend more time on. That would really be Arp, recognizing that kind of in that last graphic, You know, there's a missing demographic right like there's a demographic that falls, and we talk about this All the time, right? Falls between the cracks. Inner box Spaces have been part of the lexicon of New urbanists from the very beginning. They just haven't been calling them what they are right. So, recognizing the fact that the children, the young, the old, our current public realm, is not, as suitable as it could be. We have operations to transform interbox spaces and alleys. that 2 make more suitable realms for them, and I think Arp would be one of the key people to champion in something like that. I'm particularly making spaces for people at large without issues, and so forth. let me get into the questions. And again, there's a lot here so we'll kind of run through these. Wanna marry and get a lot of great question about. Machine I'm sure tree canopy. We often see minimal setbacks, narrow streets resulting probably small shrubs and small street trees don't provide adequate green or Anything cooling, in a desperate environment and you show. Me this recently in Philadelphia, walking these streets with just tiny face to face spaces below. That's right. Yeah, well, I guess what I first want to say is that Philadelphia is a great example of you know I I if you were just to say if I hadn't walked through Philly And somebody said well, and then other ones too, these 18 to 22 foot wide and when I say what if I'm building face to Golden Face streets? I would think there's probably not enough room for a cart path would allow a car to go through, and also mature trees, and then you walk down the Philly streets and you realize well that's wrong. Do you know, like you walk down these lovely streets that have fully mature canopies above them and you know we we have and I was just talking to our arborus of my local town recently, and he was talking about the infrastructure that needs to be put in the ground to allow for trees, to be, you know, Edison, 2 buildings, and we have the technology, and we just need to invest in. Okay, kind of what you're learning for about the need for greenery and spaces, and how people screw that up So I think there are. We absolutely can't have that healthy, you know, fully grown urban canopy on these narrow streets. One of the exciting things, about 18 foot wide, 22 foot wide spaces. Is that a small move right? And we saw that in some of these images from Philly in the Netherlands you put a pot of plants out by your front door, and it it has a huge effect. On the street right. That intentionality there allow you know, you're setting the stage for the individual citizen, the homeowner to to 2 to give that gift to the street that has a huge effect. If my street right now, if I were to walk out there, put a pot of plants, I would have to put a whole lot of pots of plants before it would have any effect at all in the street, or be noticed by the street and I would argue that would be much much glass but when we can bring that scale down in some sense. I often feel like we're really setting the stage for that greenery, you know. Strip out the the trees, take out the pots of plants, take out the ivy on the wall, and it goes from this magical amazing place, to a kind of a half-baked place. Yeah. So I think I think the green aspect of this is so key And some of the best examples of that that is in London which are famous for their green phones. But the London Muse, Mews is really a formal. Was a bunch of newer as we're trying to bring about to the United States. Lou Oliver and Bill Alison in particular, our work so alright. Call you Matt I'm gonna actually repeat what you told me in Philadelphia about these spaces, and quite a bit particularly on commercial. Yup Personal Allenways, which are also, you know, being activated, pointing out that with a little bit of greener places can be, How are you? Yes. I mean the extreme, almost that big when you're in these type spaces. So the joy is often, You know, many of these places in Philadelphia do have trees planting in the ground, but so many of them. those wonders, and the spaces were so small. You can really activate them with just a You see that all over the line Okay, another questions. And obviously it's one is, how do we deal with cars back here? And I think I've seen a lot of new urban stuff with where the concept and the site plans right by the time they get value engineered out even in a suburban site which is just you run the rest of them just the alley being is to see you Oh, good you Absolutely. Yeah, well, I would. I would first want to say that you know the car is comfortable. Going 2535 miles an hour at the pedestrian walks. At what like 3, So let's think about. Is it the best? Is it the best use of our human scale place to put the cars in the human scale place? You know something about Rosemary. Where? Well, the front street actually happens to be much narrower than that backstreet, or you know of house where the cars are being part so thinking about that to start out with so when thinking about transforming let's say an ally and South bend many of these always have almost no parking on them. Right now. Is there a way to keep minimal parking back there, and not jumping to the conclusion that hey? It's backup house, therefore, should be there. But if you were to walk down, let's say Circus Lane right? Edinburgh showed images of that on both ends of Circus Lane there are these lovely garden walls, and I have a bunch of They're They're 6 foot tall, maybe 6 6 and Then They have maybe like, let's say like a 10 foot space right so garden. Wall, peer, color, pillar, garden wall, and if you step in you'll see maybe 6 to 8 parking spots within that. So I think there are ways of grouping, small amounts of parking together, and we saw this in Philadelphia, too, on that Irving and Quint street where you have 5 little inner block streets, coming together. And just on one side one end, or you know, maybe it doesn't. Parking spots which the residents, you know, split through their h away, or whatever kind of organization they had. So I think that there are ways to you know. One. Allow the cars to go down, you know, and Philadelphia. know garage doors where one of the tricks you've seen to hide cars in a way that don't room, you know prospects Yeah. We've seen some great, most great hour ways in the States. I do have garage doors on them, and there's some hybrid of Not every building does have them. But it's truly magical when you can isolate the cars away from it, and maybe that's a cross shaping doesn't send a lot of projects. Work You just kind of isolate the cars to the side. It's not the prettiest part that preserves all of the housing in public space not be comparable. The car cart ways. 6 foot 6 foot or 6 foot 6, and it you still see cars, and even trash trucks going down, there and then to being able to group these cars, you know, in in in small groups, on on ends in little areas do tastefully behind masonry walls Awesome. It seems like that's a tremendous opportunity for design and student research to do things to design valid ways that are fully removed from The car. Yeah. And if I could add daybreak news by Opticus right And so they they're an interesting spin on this. They Basically, took a block where they took 2 bucks. We'll talk about one. one which kind of is a sea of garage doors. It's not as nearly as comfortable, and maybe it's intended not to be. But that it's separated that they're really is a plan for really is a place for people. You know, separates them out. Check both boxes without comments. Either. And that's a different way. Wow. So Valerie Lane has a great question about experience in terms of swim coordinating like my mind, or differential property interest. So you know I'm like I'm here in Durham marijuana, where we have, you know, 20 different problems on her share. yeah, I mean one of that possible. Are there examples of it? yeah, so if you were to download my book or buy it off of Amazon, I I cover this, and they in that, and and and like the second half of it, And it's really thinking about Yeah, how do we? Make, that that weep, And I think that connect of people and creating a shared vision. Is, it is an enormous left, And so I think that the first versions of this are going to be the you know, officate opticos day break news versions. We're gonna have a developer who can, who can great create, can can buy an entire inner block. Let's say, and then build on that or South Bend, let's say, where the 2 churches own that that all that property they can develop those inner box spaces. But I would want to point to Philadelphia and say that if you look at the history of those buildings, and if you just walk down the street you'll be able to tell here are 5 buildings that were built at the same time, and then 2, buildings and then one, building and then 3 buildings. So the incremental developers of the time there was a shared sense of holding a street wall and being able to develop these beautiful streets without a master plan, right None of those minor streets or master plan, and yet they were built and they exist many of them exist today so that's actually my work right now, which is how do we right? Adeu, Guidelines for for lots of out for for blocks, Let's say, with allies, How do we create au guidelines with subsidiarity at their heart which which would foster that shared vision between homeowners so that we can throw out ours is throughout the existing zone, and come up with a whole new set of parameters for new construction along alleys that will give people that vision that impetus, to invest, and I think the investment can be quite small I think that's one thing that our existing inner block hours can show us that you can create a lovely space with garden walls. It doesn't have to be buildings on by side to the street all the time. But what are you hoping to see as a tool? Okay, get Allie people together to kind of create these special spaces one of the questions, too, I guess. You see in Philadelphia as where the front and the room your house could actually be sold separately, and this is probably because they prevailed. Modern zoning, which would almost entirely with that. I know Portland has has some really good blog posts about how people are condoing those spaces which is there's a lot of reasons not to do that with some complexity but in Philadelphia are they separated very quickly. Can you actually buy the 2 buildings separately? Hedges. So in Philadelphia. So I'm gonna Philadelphia. and is that all They were never connected. Right? I mean, there might be a there might be an extreme example, and which case you had a building on a major street, and a building on a minor street that we're on the same. Lot, but they were being sold off and bought by incremental developers, and then built upon right. So there was never even a history of And I think that's part of my point with the Allies in Philly. They were their own street, with their own lot frontages. There was a fee, simple thing before those buildings were built Now, if you were to go to the Muse in England, that's a history in which those were all carriage houses of the front by the time those were redeveloped, they were all being subdivided, So the Muse in England yes, every single, muse, almost every single news building, is its own property fee, simple and Philadelphia. They were never part of, or almost never part of, the same lot as a as a primary, as a primary house, and so that might be. You know I love the concept of the compound by under rice, and I love you know he talks about what's between my house and city hall right and there's nothing right, you know, where is the hierarchy of government. Come, but when in that compound you have this, this relationship, these relationships that could start to be built through having the Atu, the 2 A to use the different people that are living interacting with me, through you know their rental agreements, or whatever and so I love the thought of 80 use forming these minor Okay. So David Rabbit was asked the question about the idea of really using this continuous alleys has actually new corridors for pedestrian or biking corridors. Obviously these are very, you know, comfortable spaces for those modes of transit. But have you seen any examples of people actually stringing them together to create greenwood corners over distance? streets; but I can also imagine that the most success could be found with the subdivision and selling off the lots at Jason Dallas. you definitely feel like that sometimes in Philly, like a lot of the streets, are non continuous. So it's just a break Jock, and you get on to the next one. ways of getting around the city But sometimes they do string together and you do start to get that feeling of you know urban oasis, moment of crossing Main Street, urban oasis You get that in the Netherlands Now, these are historic examples where you have the major minor Street, weave and so you could, every minute You'll be honest 18, maybe even 16 foot wide. Beautiful residential street, and then you'll walk across across the 45 foot one, and there's the Market Street going that way, and then you're back on the residential street and so there are definitely. Street, So I'm thinking about right now where that happens. I think somebody has shown me. You know the inner some of the inner block stuff in Milwaukee. I think they're kind of moments. Maybe of that there. Hmm. Sure it's super interesting, because especially in a lot of the the cities that are, you know, have limited wealth and obviously bike in the past Infrastructure is always sort of around Stepchild. But You know, We're always trying to find you know, greenway. Model We use a 1 million dollars a mile and we have to find a new corn or an eminent domains to that big? who we've got a big police structure like Bicycle Boulevard and the Greenways. Just see important, and see how it's just like, Just use the audio existing infrastructure like it's already literally already paid. All you gotta do is sort of sign it, or make clear and develop it lightly. But I think that that is going to be something that cities and towns across the country are gonna start doing The the expense of doing anything else, and the bureaucratic bureaucratic hurdles are almost a non-starter, you know, and that's why I you. Know if you look at that history of urban form, and you look at the Continental grid, and it's like, okay. So we founded the country, and then they came up with a framework for planning the entire rest of the country. But if you trace that back far enough, okay, then we got the alley right. The alley made its way in there, which is meant as a service thing. so So Nancy Burning had a great question of alright actually more just put in the The chat from whatever reason I can't post. But if you guys, like this conversation I have about an hour and a half on the town builders. Podcast alright about came out, So you can follow that way all over. Nancy brooding, talked about These alleyways do not exist already. To have this grid? Are you imagining that what's the best path for retro? Now that's easy. What is this? An eminent domain? Pat that messyness, or is this like mineminded property owners coming together? But it happens to be human scaled. That is a hidden resource that we can capitalize on I think it's gonna be the latter. I think it's gonna be the incremental developers. I think the incremental developers and some of the work that say, like not petty Matt Hoffman, Jen Griffin, are doing with pre-proof plans that's going to be, the future and it's going to be recognizing and at the Cnu presentation we did together this past summer spring. We were looking at some of the most, you know, attract the the places that bring in tourists right these these, these these anchor anchor tourist locations fit on. Tiny pieces of land. Right? So I can create a sense of plates on this, and and Carlton line. It was an example, too, if you were to simply buy 2 adjacent blocks, you could do amazing things right? So it doesn't take a whole lot of land. So I think let's forget about the eminent domain, the best inner box spaces. I would, I would argue, or at least my approach I'm sure there are many good approaches would be to have a bottom up. Approach. That's how the best inner walks spaces were created by a couple of blocks work with The incremental developers work. Okay, let's let's cut a path through. You told that Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's interesting, too, for any of the students or younger folks on here. I mean, we've talked about the It's an incredible opportunity to kind of further your work for some of the work in arp like retrofitting is messy and hard like you really have to kind of all property owners to agree. And that's some challenge. But maybe there's 4 or 5 degree where you can do sort of a debt end out of an existing street. And there's almost it's not that hard to to bake a hey? The city There's almost like a private public partnership that's in a many form with the city might pay the alley, maybe to utilities. Maybe they come from fraud in exchange for the It's like a mini tip. The increase in tax values that would come from building 5 or 6 homes. Similar to what we've drawn It's just a simple math equation where the city could say, Oh, gosh! Yeah, we'll pay that absolutely. It'll be it 3 or pay payback or 5, 10, or whatever it is. With some of these pre-proof plans that John Anderson and other people are putting together, and recognize that at 18 Foot Wide Street is the most photograph street in the United States Absolutely. And I think that's that's been the guiding vision of my work of the last 2 or 3 years is looking that question earlier about how do we get over this hurdle of individual property owners that have no shared vision right you know the hurdle that we might maybe know more about our national politics than we do about our local politics, and we haven't seen good development in 50 years. Very very likely. So how do we actually create some kind of shared vision where the investment needed for something like this is significant, and the barriers are excruciatingly high. So I would say, You know I'm I'm looking at ways to simply redo the codes right like if if a municipality is willing to to help out and put in the street by, you know put in the lovely 3 bites and paving you know even better like a little tip for Lauren gave us the 5 min warning. Almost 5 min ago. I appreciate the number. The people out here probably work. Folks are taking a launch. So I wanted to thank everybody. We can stick around and kind of answer some of these questions. There's 5, 30 of them still on the chat, Thomas. Just so, you know, but I'm also found this stuff super interesting just because it's really a cutting edge. Our newer yeah, don't love alleys, but we don't really talk about not much. Yeah, with these, you know, 4 stipulations, or whatever it would be And I love it. I'm working with the scale is one that almost anybody can operate at have to be big developer to here and set a scale with some. Yeah. Personal all that can be made so super fascinating stuff everybody to buy a I was on the night now. Really Well, these topics, so parting thoughts from you Thomas Well, what you just said right there, you know, I think. Opening up the door to to democratizing in some sense the public realm, you know. I was just saying, as you said, that I was thinking about Acorn Street and Beacon Hill right if I think about Beacon Hill as a place sense of place I'm thinking about the neighborhood, and if I'm on a street that street the character of that street, that sends a place to that street is determined by the length of the street. Very often the intersections, you know, as it's very interesting as you grow that scale right? If the street is 75 foot from building phase, development phase, or 100 from building, then the number of factors that play a role in creating a sense of place in the in the power let's say that sense of space is determined at you know an X factor many X factors of like how much investment would it need to create a beacon? Hill, but in Acorn 3 which you could argue. That's the most photograph street. Is that a fraction of that scale of that capital of you know the infrastructure needed. Yeah. And yet without them being competing, or without even one really being a judgement on the other, you could argue that the sense of place of Acorn Street is as powerful in some ways as the neighborhood of Beacon Hill. And so I think, recognizing that individuals have this possibility, The land has been locked, you know. We have been able to just cut new public realm into our cities, you know. That's been off limits for 100 years. About. But if we could start opening up that door which Arp has been doing with a use and really looking at, you know, some of the work of obviously the new urbanists and Cnn, if if we could start allowing that I think the Oh! Oh, that's great! Well, Lauren told us we could stick on for a couple of minutes. We still got 150 people on that know some people will drop and let me do a speed round with you, and thanks everybody for attending this. I'm I'm really appreciate rob and form, but at least on seeing you, I think it's one of the ones we can stay engaged while we're not in the conference. So let me. Let's see. Here we can spend another 10 min kind of flying through. But thanks, everybody. People asked about Aba requirements. future we would see such remarkable places I mean, if you go down to Arp like it gets addressed on me. Obviously, that's one of their key concerns universal design. One of the interesting things I found in the Netherlands is that their inner block spaces are very often specifically designed around elderly and children. So you'll go from Main Street. You take a left. You're in a courtyard It's elderly housing. You keep going, you take a right. It's the elementary school. And so they were very conscious of that. And you'll see the 0 thresholds on almost every single one of their doors. In Philadelphia we saw a mix of different things very often. You'll privacy, sake. You'll see the 3 or 4 steps up. I think that there are many historic and new examples of the Ada accessible inner box space. I'm working on. I think a really exciting one, and Carlton lioning with Grant. Humphreys, and it's going to be really the first God's house. What have you seen with 80 baby news and ally block development, as it relates to Aba One of the questions from Daryl Bavik. The intentionally design inter block courtyard with small houses that are gonna be ada accessible I think I understand this question he was talking about. There are really great Greenfield developments in Oklahoma, and particularly landing in Wheeler. Well, I think everything. We've been talking about so far. I think the biggest thing I would do is I would just show them comparison to like scale comparisons next to each other. You know. What did you find successful in Carlton Landing? Boom! Here's your block. Here's your existing ally. That thing that you found so successful in Carlton Landing fits inside your alley that this ally happens to not even be used, or whatever I did, a shirt in Tulsa. a number of years ago, and that was actually one of the first impetus for this thinking in this project for me, was walking down these alleys that had been completely abandoned. They were little wars out. There were trees, there were cars, there were fires like these were abandoned spaces that had not been deep platted. Oh, recognize the opportunity. We're not talking about moving infrastructure from the alley to the outside of the street. It's simply recognizing that the human scale that we're hardwired for, that. The most photograph streets in America are at that scale. By what can all other cities learn from these new development with inter block development What transact would you? Thanks, Allen. Where is falling too? Those could be created along these abandon alleyways I mean totally depends on how to. You know when I when you say ally, you know, if it's a back of back of house, you, know I think then it's really relating. You know, our conventional alley here. Where does that fit into the transect? You know Douglas, Tuani, I think, would critique the way that the transect is often used today, and I would agree with him. I would say, one of the characteristics of interblocking where I use the word transect shift is that when you step into a block you typically step down, intersect. So if I'm walking along a city street in Edinburgh, Newtown, Edinburgh, and I turn it walked down the Muse. Primarily. It takes me all about 10 or 15 s to be completely in a village, so I went from city to village right in the Netherlands. Very similar. Thanks. No! I would argue that you could today be walking down, let's say, a typical residential block, walk into an ally depending on how you develop that you might feel like you went up and transacted, right like you might walk into You know, We're talking about eightys and i've been talking about residential inter block. But what about what about interwo commercial? Yeah. What about the what they call acu? That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of text on both of Raleigh and Portland. Commercial. Okay, you know. So this is Do I? You know some of some of the most successful inner box places I can think of like walk through York, the shambles, market streets, you know. Douglas would say, the best market streets. When were you walking down the center And I can window shop both sides at the same time Go to the Netherlands like these market streets are like that. Right I can. I can see, I can see, you know. So I think we could. Yeah, yeah. Super interesting. A great opportunity for somebody who draws against student exercise, actually expand that transact, recognizing sound applause with it, but actually showing the alleys behind the stepdown out in size, behind you know, perfect. Yeah, Oh, okay, that question on design. What are some standards? perhaps form base case that could be put in for walls, so that they are interestingly designed. Not blank spaces or canvases for group meeting dangerous to pedestrians at night. We could take inter block spaces in both directions. Yeah, if you so, if you get the book, I I have a couple of pages on walls and I would say, you see, repeating patterns, right? You know how how are the power all of these, you know 100 minor streets, or whatever, almost all minor streets, are a combination of buildings, and walls It's not all buildings and very often you'll see a checkerboard where it's building fronts wall building fronts wall to preserve privacy, and you'll see very typical, almost all masonry walls But you all see hedges and the last image I had was St. Michael's Alley, which is a historic alley, in Charleston. But Ali, meaning Residential street ally. But it's actually the, you know. That's probably how it's planted, but it's kind of a combination Charleston is a really great place to go precedent today for these outs There's only hint, you know, Maybe a half dozen of them but it didn't have the industrial pressures of the east coast cities, So it's agrarian, and so you never saw the kind of density concerns that Philadelphia in these other cities had. And so you end up having these beautiful but just a few of them beautiful pedestrian scale, you know, 18 foot wide, little lanes or alleys that are not at the density of Philadelphia. As these spaces are smaller, more what strategies do you see Yeah, like sort of all suburban in the world. And so you'll see a couple of buildings, and then a hedge, a couple buildings, a masonry wall, maybe even a you know, a wood stock 8 fence or something like that, So I would say, you know, look to what's working Good Ed! 1 one final thought that though, is that you know, the wall like the intention of that is shaping space right? If I have a 4 foot wall, my alley space is what space is, how my line of site is contained. So know that whatever Wall, we're talking about, if I want this space of the minor street of this alley to be 18 foot wide. just designed, because the concept can still work, even though it's more space down Well, it's got to be above my eye. So you'll often see these minor street walls to be 6, 6 foot 6, 6, so I don't have the experience to really talk about me. once been the best way to brush alley development and interlock development with the store communities May be reluctant to work and type compounds, and from store district constraints I've I've done a little bit of that trying to start this conversation, so I think really it's pointing out that it's in the historic places that and and around here I'm outside Philadelphia that's where the minor streets exist. So you're showing this is part of our history. Right? You're you're giving a presentation to a hard or planning commission. You're saying. This is what makes Westchester, Philadelphia. Yup right This is what makes gives the character a definition to work. Place like this is what makes us so special. And it's very easy to go to a comprehensive plan and say, this is really the heart of the comprehensive plan, too. Continuing these traditions of development and the buildings that give the character that make our place special and part of that are these ally streets, these alley buildings, and so can legalizing really pointing out the fact that the the breaking continuity was that we made them illegal at 1 point you Yeah. know, what we were developing like this for a solid 250 years. Yeah. I'm a Restoration contractor for most of my career here in Durham. They became illegal. Let's go ask them again. Other argument is that the Yeah, economic extraord districts can, And should I be regulated the fraud as they do in Savannah and Charleston for the back? It is awesomeherently more flexible and kind of an afterthought. And if you do something different, or even weird, it doesn't correct. So you have a more of a blank canvas to be created and that's not to say some of your sort piece of design stuff that's in your book might still be desirable. Most alleys. When I live on, people kind of did their own thing, and it still forms a pretty great space. So and it's in the store district, so that that is an argument that you're kind of allowing, which is something have a visual reaction to. But it's changed that release pressure off, and you know you know, front of the house change. But they're really about and allows the neighborhood to. That's right. That's that's a better answer. And I think also gets more to the heart of inter block development, and that it is its own little nested thing, and I don't need a form based code or overhaul of my entire city and what is it appropriate for this block maybe it's not appropriate for this block I can develop, you know, the the most photographed street in America, right here, where they're using their alley for cars, And that's great. So. I'll keep you that original character. So that's at least some of the fish somebody asked, Is this concept applied? Downtown districts that have a lot of high rises? I think your your answer is better. I've seen it in Dc. And and and out go to Mark. If you think about like, yeah, I mean, absolutely market Square and Pittsburgh is a really interesting example. Now it's a historic place, but you have a feeling of interblocking that the scales drastically different. When I'm going to step inside of there, and there's something really kind of exciting. They can. Can you do interblock development? Such a point I think about stepping into this human scale Place 3, 4 story buildings, their traditional, you know, way out and towering about them is, you know, like they glass skyscraper. Alright. Yeah. Yeah, that's what Nancy Brand has a great question of this. If I can't imagine this in a large city, except maybe repurposing parking lots. I go to the whole block. And it's interesting because we we contextualize. Most of your work is really based upon a problem you know. It's the simplest way to understand these, but really not a damage example. The beautiful rendering of the students, said: A lot of these are sort of on larger access parcels, parking lots, underutilized green spaces, I know I'm go on, unfortunately and it gets down forward to do a a faith based housing chat where south most churches have access land not All over perfect for this? That has nothing to do with an hour. It just has to be with. You get the same kind of feeling in some places, and in in Philadelphia, too, which which is kind of actually exciting and fun to have that contrast You can. Go create a little village on. Oh, yeah, no agreeing on the port. So What do you? How where should people look for these opportunities? That's right. I was The first thing to recognize is that you can create these places with almost no land. So if you were to go to Harlem and the Netherlands, and walk through their Hof. Yeah, which are their ownui housing inner box spaces. There are examples there which you would find unbelievable tiny little passage. You walk through courtyard stunningly. Beautiful pardon! To 4 houses around it, let's say, on either side, or maybe it's 3 with like a brick wall on the back, and if you were to look at it on a plan you know pencil it out. You could fit those things all over your city, no matter which city you We're basically, I mean, most most of our American cities. So I think I think the scale can come way way down and and you're right. There's no need for this to be an ally. Okay. I think it allies kind of lowest hanging fruit, but it's any place where you can create new public, new public semi-public space inside the blob How do you get those little homes? Around it And that's what our demographics are asking for. That's what alder we housing, you know. That's what That's what they're asking for that demographic. Yeah. So there's a market demand Trade job is a great question, which I know needs further resource, research and crowdsourcing information. But what sort of creative solutions have you seen for financing this type of development? Okay. I think that's right. And I think that's why we're going to see big developments to at first, I mean already. I I saw a stack come out of Portland maybe a couple, maybe last year They said there were more 80 U. Account house or bye small colleges, Plenty of interest in this, but market slow to react, and I suspected financing is probably a headline Permits, pulled in major primary arms. So that's an example where you're seeing a whole lot of ads being built, and those could be built in such a way that they turn their back on the Alley Portland doesn't have a whole lot of Allies so it's but just say that a city with allies, could see more, eightyu permits being pulled than primary. Right? So those are. That's a huge amount of investment that's already gonna going into these. If you have an alley, it's an it's kind of an inner block building type. And so there's opportunity to based that ally and create a shared vision with the other people along that alley or to turn your back on it. So that's investment right there. Daybreak news is a good example. The developer You can read about it online. The developer said he was nervous about the building type, He was nervous about development, and yet, you know, they developed the entire block. It were, It was the news houses that so much more quickly. then the houses on the front streets, I think it's it's a highly desirable product in the book. By highlight. Other versions of this, either with new organist developers, or just other developers of the last 25 years. You know the Cottage Court's a good example, too. Yeah. There's demand for it. So I think incremental developers are going to be the first people that are going to find a home for these missing urban spatial types That's a great point, and and I, and at least Toronto has a lot of literature on it, too. So that's a That's a great resource. I'm I'm glad they brought that up. Yeah, up. Oh, I think we can wrap up. But there's 2 or 2 of our Canadian friends, or people, at least with Canada, pointed out that Montreal and Toronto both have pretty much or worse on continuous Alleyways, which is Super cool information They've been doing some really wonderful work with that in Canada. Well, that's good. I I I don't know if you want to rob want to chime in, but I thank everybody for coming and sticking around for the the overtime and we'll encourage people to We've some of I mean this i'm sure will be posted with similar conversation which gets into more of the kind of technical side of his book through that podcast that was linked and thanks. Thank you. Yup.